Graphic Pokedex Entry help - Template

This thread's author wants feedback on a sprite or other graphical art. Be constructive.

Willow Hallowes

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Ok so this is technically linked to another thread i did back in september i think but like i’m not sure what kind of Pokédex template layout i want - I know i at least want a colour scheme with certain colours for different variants (One for Heaven and One for Hell) but the rest i am unsure of because i want it to look good but not like top compact or anything??

i’ll like to the thread if i can about more details but yeah any suggestions would be nice

Key Note: Sin type colours are like a blood red whilst Virtue colours are like a holy yellow i would call it.

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Thread i first spoke of this: https://reliccastle.com/threads/5526/
 
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AenaonDogsky

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Before addressing the layout specifically, I would suggest doing the following:

1) reduce the brightness of the light yellow color for "virtue" if you end up using that (since its high contrast might cause discomfort to some people, or to those using certain screen/color configurations)

2) it's generally not a good approach to use real-life religious symbols for a variety of reasons. These range from potential disrespectfulness to incoherent in-game worldbuilding, to not being communicable enough on a wider scale. I will explain the latter two briefly, since disrespectfulness is mostly self-explanatory. In most fiction, and in this case, games, and Pokemon games in particular, there is a differentiation between the internal-to-the-game religions (and even ideologies, or systems), and their external inspirations. This provides an air of authenticity while keeping the general image that's based on the external inspiration, familiar. Of course there are pieces of fiction that don't only heavily borrow, but insert real-life elements as is. But even if that is your aim, the safest way is to use concepts that are more broadly familiar, which in your case apply in this form:

"Virtue" is a concept that is recognizable throughout history and across cultures. It's a good start - while "sin" is also one of those concepts, perhaps even more than "virtue", the direct opposite of "virtue" is "vice" (well, in most cases it is a synonym to "sin", but it's not as specific as sin). Virtue is not only a moral thing, it's more of a characteristic that is tied to a behavior. So is vice. These are universally recognized already, so I'd suggest you change "sin" to "vice". (not to mention that "vice" is more general-audience friendly)

Symbols could be anything from "light, an arrow pointing up, an orderly arrangement of lines, or a sword - since you have to fight to attain it" for virtue, to "darkness, arrow pointing down, dissolved and chaotic lines, or a cracked object, vines or thorns (signaling being held captive)" for vice. Funnily enough, both Vice and Virtue start with a V - and a V pointing up is ^ so you could actually use a ^ and v for symbols, and if combined they make a rhombus or ... something resembling two conjoined alphas.

As far as the color scheme for the layout is concerned, opposite range colors do the trick - with the most cliché example being black and white - but also more plain colors for virtue (think blue), and more extravagant colors for vice (let's say pink) may apply. The classic 80s blue-pink neon combination is one example. If you want to implement a gradient hue, leading from one end to the other, then you can do that, it's fine. You could also use your main 2 colors in combination with 2 other colors for other details and use them interchangeably. Your current set of colors seems cool, too. Yellow or gold for virtue and oxblood/burgundy red or purplish for vice is fine.

To some up, here's what I'd suggest:
1) reduce brightness of yellow
2) change "sin" to "vice"
3) replace the symbols
4) use any of these:
a) any opposite colors on the hue
b) calmer, plain colors for virtue, stronger flashier colors for vice
c) a gradient from one color to the other
d) a combination of your 2 main colors with 2 "side" colors

Finally, you could always do a mockup of like a couple of templates, and even if you don't get any feedback on it, just roll with (whichever) one! The same applies to other things, like evolutions, or names. You can always go back to improve these.
 
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Willow Hallowes

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Thanks for the feedback: few issues though
1. i have no idea how to make a pokedex template
2. I think someone already did a vice and virtue thing hence why i avoided calling it that
3. I know it’s not a good approach but considering this more darker than normal Pokémon games yeah - besides its based on the concepts of heaven vs hell so
And 4. If i changed the symbols i don’t know what i’d change them too like pentagrams wont work cause those are mostly for wiccan stuff ya know?

oh one more thing - if i did change the typing stuff id have to like ya know go bak and readd them to pokemon i have with those typings so
 

AenaonDogsky

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1. Well, what exactly do you mean by template? The actual art? The contents (how many mons and type variety etc)? How the UI will be made?

2. Oh, in that case here's some ideas: Ethereal and Abyssal, Celestial and Cthonian (or Hthonian, meaning below the earth). I believe these convey the meaning you want, especially the latter since it's literally sky/earth. They also sound in line with what you'd expect for a Pokemon game.

3. Hm, then you must have already heard how everyone recommends keeping away from darker-style Pokemon games. You don't need to have actual dark things in it, you can allude to them like the mainline games do. It's harder but it will make you a better writer/developer. See my reply regarding "Ethereal/Abyssal, Celestial/Hthonian" examples - these can put your concept forward without it becoming too dark. And consider that, despite all the warnings you might put, minors will still play "dark" games (perhaps even more so...). You can definitely turn some of the dark elements into more neutral elements (like in the Colosseum and XD games).

4. Crystals vs dark clouds/bubbles, or shining rays vs foggy "waves", can be used as symbols, too.

Why would you need to redo the mons? You mean their sprites? Their sprites wouldn't be affected by the name of the type. Or in-game text? This wouldn't be hard to replace. If you are talking about the Types PBS, the "internal" name that the game recognizes doesn't need to be changed, only the string (the text that is displayed) needs to be changed, and you only need to change that once in the Types PBS, and nowhere else.
 

Willow Hallowes

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In advance: I’m sorry if i’m coming off as rude - i just want it to be good but follow at least most of my ideas for the game

1. Yeah mostly the like UI thing cause i have never made like that sort of thing before in my life so it would be difficult to find a good thing

2. Ethereal and Abyssal is also another like thing i’ve heard by another pokemon region thing although what about Celestial and Thanatos? Or something that is opposite of Thanatos?

3. True but its hard to stay away from dark things when pokemon was sort of already edgy but not too much (i dont want to change my cities cause i want them to represent each sin/vice or virtue since i focus on what i connect them with e.g wrath - war,rage,fighting,destruction,fire)

4. True i havent thought about like what other symbols could be used cause idk how to research those types of things.

5. No no i mean like the typing under the pokemon like where i display the types (I’m using a sw/sd style type) that sort of thing!!
 

AenaonDogsky

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You aren't coming off as rude, don't worry. Also ideas are meant to be tinkered with, so you should expect to, at one point, do some modifications to existing ideas or concepts on a game.

1. Well if you are talking about in-game Pokedex UI, you can refer to examples from other fangames. If you are referring to this showcase UI I've seen a couple of "poketubers" use to show their own dexes, then... I guess the same? If you are referring to scripting a different UI, then, that's an entirely different issue.

2. The opposite to Celestial being literally "death" doesn't sound very fitting. Maybe "Hermetic" (sealed), Cryptic (obscure, hidden away), or Subterranean (the more literal opposite to Celestial, but doesnt sound amazing) ? Celestial and Cryptic both start with a C, co you can combine them to make an O, in the logo or something.

3. You can have your cities represent that through their layout and NPCs. I mean "wrath" city can definitely have residents dealing with their own anger issues, without that being overwhelmingly explicit. (you don't need actual representation of violence). And you don't need to change their names either. Also how is Pokemon edgy? (well Col/XD kinda was edgy but in a cool way)

4. With these things start small, and with everyday stuff. For instance, light is light and dark is dark, obviously. What other things could be similar to these, to show your concept? Crystals play with light to create effects. When there is fog, there is less light, and you cant see.

5. If that's on the in-game pokedex, I think the type symbol for each type is... just one type symbol in the graphics? So you'd still have to change it once in one or two places only. Otherwise, if you are talking about your own art you can still draw that once, and copy paste it over the old type.
 

Willow Hallowes

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Yeah true,i just wanted to get started with everything - i’m not used to criticism like this cause sometimes it makes me feel like my ideas are just bad or awful even so ya know.

1. 100% Showcase UI - like i literally don’t know how to do that sort of thing and like how to set it up because i want it to be like really good but something that fits the pokemon project i’m doing.

2.Might actually consider like changing the names to Celestial and Crpytic because i didnt think of actual names for the like ya know stuff so that sort of helps!!

3. I also plan on having the nurse joys have a twist too (mainly cause imo getting bored with all of them saying the same thing though stuck on like the celestial thing or heaven ones - the sin ones I've done really:
  • Wrath - Hostile and Agressive
  • Lust - sultry tones,flirtation (I know mature but like all i can think of and it sort of fits though maybe i shouldve added like giggling)
  • Gluttony - often having food in their mouth, chubby cheek sort of talk.
  • Pride - boastful, bragging a-lot.
  • Envy - use of “Ugh”, “I wish” and “you have it better..”in alot of sentences, jealous looks, lisp of ssss like a snake hiss
  • Greed - “I want” “Give me” and “Let me have..” in lots of sentences.
  • Sloth - snoring or falling asleep nearly, tired plus yawning
Though the layout thing you might have to explain to me since ya know unsure what you mean by that.

4. I might consider those as options - depends if it works in my head or not honestly also like it started being sort of edgy during the pokemon yellow days mainly cause bill was a pokemon at first and like had to change back into a human (plus the animes and movies were dark as heck like ash kept dying) heck some of the dex entries were edgy and dark too. Sorry if i again sound rude here!

5. Yeah mostly art for the time being (I use procreate constantly since i drew over 300 or something pokemon in one month and a half until i got my ipad) - still trying to do the pokemon style of drawing but it’s kind of hard (fair warning most of my own pokemon are actually combinations of existing Pokèmon since i find it more creative that way reallly)
 

AenaonDogsky

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Don't worry, and don't blame yourself - a whole lot of people do take heartfelt feedback as aggressive "criticism", instead. Most of the time, in gamedev, ideas by themselves aren't bad or good. It's mostly the execution that is the difficult part. But either way, ideas take practice too. Let's say you come up with 50 ideas. Not all 50 can be good, no matter who you are - you could be the most intelligent person, and still most of those 50 ideas wouldn't be good. That's why you need to practice coming up with ideas, and test them out, keep what it works, discard what it doesn't. It's not an issue of "you" it's an issue of keep practicing and seeing what you can implement and what you can't. Let's say you can't do a lot of push-ups. You can work-out for a year, and then you might be able to do 30 push-ups in a row. If someone were to come to you and tell you "hey, you can't do 2 push-ups" before you even started exercising, would you consider yourself to be "awful"? No, you just haven't exercised enough yet. It's the same with every skill.

1. Ah, sorry I am totally inexperienced in that area and I can't help you, then. But I think your gradient idea is neat. Or even a simple diagonal split with one color on the left and the other on the right would do. I guess you could post some examples on your thread for people who have a good eye for those things to comment. If you don't get any feedback, then just stick with one, and if you need to, you'll change it later.

2. Glad to help! Celestial and Cryptic is a good combo I think.

3. Oh yeah, the nurse joy idea is nice. By layout I mean this - a lazy city would only have like... barely any navigable streets, buildings all close together so that people walk veeeerry little... a wrath city would have "angry" architecture like... roads everywhere, a lot of traffic (and angry drivers)... pride city would be extravagant and full of neon and bright lights and super tall skyscrapers to show vanity... etc. Now lust city... well, gotta be careful with that. You could make it have darker pallete and people looking impoverished and "addicted" to playing videogames all the time and buying everything on a whim (I know it's not the same, but gotta keep it moderate)

4. Oh yeah first few seasons of the anime were messed up, the movies used to be even worse. But the games have had a fairly similar tone throughout - Bill's example was seen more of a joke even back in the 90ies. Like the crazy scientist that got turned into a mon, sort of a gag. There were some more serious themes, ironically, and then the lore got super funky and made no sense with each new "humongous overpowered mon destroys the world cause weirdo evil team". But the tone and how it is expressed through the gameplay and dialogue, isn't really edgy or dark. Refer to colosseum or XD for a good balance.

5. Most of everything fandevs do is a combination of existing stuff, including the very games themselves LOL! Sprite art? Usually taken from bits and pieces of official art. Character art? Same, with trainer sprites. Overworlds? Same. Music? You name it. This doesn't mean anything - it's how everyone does it, especially at first. With experience over the years you get to make totally original stuff.

All in all, yeah, I think Celestial and Cryptic, with a crystal and fog/stain symbol, and some slight alterations to your in-game depictions is a great start!
 

Willow Hallowes

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Ah gotcha!! I will consider like taking some of the city suggestions you have as well as the whole like the sloth one plus i often think of sloth as like ya know sleeping (i might do purple for it cause pride is somewhat associated with the colour blue) i think i posted a thread on the sin cities but i might add to those with your ideas if you don’t mind - don’t worry bout lust anything that sounds immature would have a shut door in a way like you cant see whats going on inside of there to keep it safe.

As for like the destorying the world thing - i went a different direction with my legendaries and its sort of like distorting the balance one evil team claims they are doing good by “purifying” it with like ya know virtues and such whilst the other is corrupting it with sin. That’s sort of the basis i have for different evil team goals like this was mostly based on sapphire and ruby but depending on if you get celestial or cryptic you get either the “purifying” evil team or the corrupting evil team.

I might consider the fog stain thing too as well - i still yet to do the like virtue cities which might as for feedback on that soon plus i gotta do the badges for both 8 cities.

i’ll see what i can do for like the pokedex stuff showcase UI wise if i can figure it out though the gradient idea sounds appealing to me,i am also planning new items - one being a freaking old battleaxe for a tauros evolution,yes it evolves into a minotaur because it makes sense!!

but yeah thanks for the help honestly i’ll see if i can make a new feedback thread for like the virtue cities and how the joys would speak there for help too if i can!!

Update: So i darkened the yellow on the virtue typing and changed sin to vice (it’s gonna be a while to edit the artwork that had that typing to replace it with new one cause most had the vice typing) plus um i cant draw crystals i realised-
 

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AenaonDogsky

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Obviously feel free to use anything for your cities, that's why I left it here, lol.

Are you running with "vice" and "virtue" then, instead of "Celestial and Cryptic"?

Are you doing 8 cities for the one and 8 for the other? That might prove to be a pain from a development perspective. Consider reducing that down to 4 and 4. There's a reason everybody recommends starting small with your game at first. You can also play with themes for sky/earth, order/chaos since you described a sort of "balanced" approach to the evil teams and to the themes themselves (it wouldn't make sense for virtue and vice to both be equally valid, since one is the absence of the other, and they can't co-exist. It's not the same, for instance, as order and chaos, which are both components of a larger system, and are both valid. Virtue and vice are mutually exclusive - there can be no middle ground. Consider, for instance being very jealous of someone. You can use that as a motivation to improve yourself over what you are jealous of - that would be turning the vice into a virtue, for instance, in philosophy, but jealousness by itself is not good.)

Like I said, don't worry if you don't get (enough) feedback. Just use a template and move on. You can always modify it later.

A small tip for your thread titles would be to try to have as clear of a title as possible. For instance "Help with cities themed around the concept of 'virtue'".

The yellow looks nice, now!

And here, I used http://www.onlinewebfonts.com to get some icons with free licensce, and I edited them too, so it's a transformative work.
I made the crystal more "crystal-y" and used "blinds" from a cloud icon, on a eye icon, to convey being "hidden". I have both black and white versions here in case you cant see the white versions due to the transparent background. You can use them as is, or draw over them, (just credit the website).
 

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Willow Hallowes

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Ah thank you
I’m using vice and virtue type wise but i’m probably gonna use celestial and cryptic for something else maybe could be new types could be something else who knows.

Also ah gotcha lemme see if i can edit that tile of that one thread i posted last night when i get the chance!

I’m greatful for the help honestly like it seriously means a lot!

City wise - not really - i can’t do 8 for each cause theres only seven sins and seven virtues so going for a more different approach instead of facing eight gyms you basically tackle 7 warlords/archangels depending on the version you get really. The badges i might change to something else if i feel like badges wont cut it.
 
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